Poll: Software engineers – how much do you make?
Yesterday, frequent Burbed reader ex-sunnyvale-renter and I got into a debate on who much do programmers/software engineers make.
Here’s a snippet of the thread:
Why can’t you afford a house in the Bay Area?
ESR:
Software pays maybe, if you’re lucky, $40k a year but woops an H1B got that job.Burbed:
Are you kidding?All the data is on http://www.Salary.com:
A Software Engineer I (crappy college grad) gets $65k a year.
A Software Engineer II (good college grad) gets $80k a year.
A Software Engineer III (college grad + 3 yrs) gets $93k a year.
Even a Public School teacher according to Salary.com makes over $40k (50-67k)
I’m not sure where you come up with that $40k number, but it’s pretty preposterous.
Heck, even a Software Engineer I in Mobile, Alabama makes more than $40k.
I’m also not sure why you blame H1B’s. Yes they are taking jobs – but the reality is that all the major companies and startups are hiring like crazy. It’s like blaming a few specific drops of rain for a flood.
Look at http://www.Apple.com/jobs or http://careers.yahoo.com/ – it’s crazy.
ESR:
Burbed I don’t care what those on-line Zestimates of programmers’ salaries are, they’re not true, not in the real world.I have been around far, far too many programmers, most are laid off, going to be laid off, or already working at Home Despot.
Hell if I thought there was money in *programming* of all things I’d have gone into it. Sheesh! It’s not THAT hard to learn. It gets a little wierd when you get into n-dimensional pointer fields and such, but it is learnable.
What do you think? Any software engineers reading this? What’s the job market looking like for you?
December 9th, 2007 at 6:28 am
I’m a programmer in flyover country (Birmingham, Alabama) with a BS in CS (from USA in Mobile) and eleven years of experience who has made low 6 figures since 2000.
I’ve been on voluntary sabbatical since March but I don’t anticipate any trouble finding work when I start looking for it in the spring.
December 9th, 2007 at 8:26 am
90k, staff engineer at Sun. I’m officially based in Menlo Park, but work from home most of the time. I graduated with a masters in CS last May, and I have several years of experience in high tech, but not as a software engineer. I was making 70k as a technical writer in SF before I quit to go to grad school and make the career change.
There are PLENTY of very good paying jobs for people who actually know what they’re doing. I am trying to hire a contractor and can’t find anybody who doesn’t flat out lie about their experience on a resume. When I was looking to hire technical writers to replace me years ago, most didn’t bother to spell check their cover letters.
IMHO there was a giant washout when the dotcoms collapsed. There were plenty of people working as “software engineers” who didn’t know their asses from a hole in the ground, or that have no social skills or ability to deal with the political realities of working in an office with other intelligent human beings. Those are the “software engineers” that are working at Home Depot and Starbucks. I don’t know a single QUALIFIED engineer with education and skills who has ever stayed unemployed after a layoff for longer than about 8 weeks in the last 10 years.
December 9th, 2007 at 8:32 am
If true, that’s incredible.
I’d say as something I could jump into on a pretty much right-away basis, it’s tech writer. I spend the last 10 years banging out Ebay copy, and the first 4 of them working with no photos – I regularly got compliments on my way of “painting a picture” with words lol. I know what a style manual is, the difference between rain, rein, and reign, and stuff like that. Sure I’d have to pick up “Tech Writing For Dummies” and spend a bit of time learning the actual tech writer ropes, but I’d be all for training for that if there are jobs in it.
December 9th, 2007 at 8:33 am
spent.
“When I say writing, I mean re-writing” …. Some Famous Writer Guy Who Hung Around With Hemingway.
December 9th, 2007 at 8:33 am
srb — Um,
December 9th, 2007 at 8:34 am
You work at Sun? Er ……. I don’t count Sun-reality as reality-reality you should know that.
December 9th, 2007 at 9:19 am
>100K, PhD, 9 years of experience, but 100K doesn’t seem unusual for experienced senior engineers at my company, regardless of degree.
BTW, I was a H1-B. The company posts salaries of newly hired H1-Bs, and they’re all >80K.
December 9th, 2007 at 9:34 am
I am Computer Scientist in R&D at a Bay Area company that has about 5k employees.
When looking for “good” jobs, it is not enough to be (or have been) a HTML/J2EE/Acronym-of-the-year programmer. You need to know the real concepts – memory management, performance optimization and algorithms. It helps to know a real language like C++, maybe even assembly, not because you will use it in your job but because it teaches you how to think about all aspects of the problem. A C++ programmer has to consider memory management issues all the time, a Java programmer doesn’t. On an average, the former writes better code, even when programming in Java or Ruby. Programming correctly and efficiently is hard – see http://worsethanfailure.com/ for the output produced by a less than competent programmer.
Indians/Chinese get all the high paying jobs because they are the only ones willing to spend their 20s in grad school getting MS/PhD living on Ramen noodles. No pain, no gain? Go get a graduate degree in cs/ce/ee from a decent place, it will sharpen your brain and you’ll clear six figures easily. I know. I did.
December 9th, 2007 at 9:43 am
The high end of standard starting salaries at most of the big tech companies was 40k back in ’93 when I graduated. The salary.com numbers look accurate to me.
If you’ve got a reasonable degree and 5-10 years of experience, then 100k isn’t uncommon.
If someone’s working for 40k now in the bay area (even Gilroy) then they’re not a “software engineer”
December 9th, 2007 at 9:50 am
I predict a lot of “no true scot” in this thread. “There are no jobs!” “Well, actually, I’ve got a good one.” “Yeah, but I wasn’t talking about you!”
December 9th, 2007 at 10:08 am
C++ is about the highest level language I’d want to deal with if I were a programmer, I like the lower level stuff.
You guys talk as if education were free in the US, like it is in Europe or India, it’s not.
You almost have to make the $100k a year first then you can afford to go to college :-/
Still, while I did well in C++ in class, I didn’t know it was worth a shit, moneywise. And what really intrigues me is embedded programming, all those cryptic little chips that won’t because they can’t, communicate with you via engraved script.
December 9th, 2007 at 10:23 am
I’m a software engineer making well over 100k. I have about 7 years experience and no advanced degrees. I’m probably on the higher end of the spectrum for someone with no real specialty, but on the other hand from conversations with recruiters I’m pretty confident I could be making more if I tried. But I like my job and won’t be looking for a while.
I also think I’m fairly close to the glass ceiling for someone who is purely technical with no advanced degrees or rare specialization. I feel like if I wanted to be making *a lot* more, I’d have to go into management, consulting, or start my own company.
If you’re a Java developer making less than 70-80k, please email burbed and they can refer you to me. My company is hiring.
December 9th, 2007 at 11:21 am
I make just over 100K. I have an advanced degree, but only a very few years of experience.
The salary.com estimates seem quite accurate to me too. I know people from both sides of the spectrum (i.e., 100K).
But I do not know of any software engineer making as low as 40K in the bay area.
December 9th, 2007 at 11:35 am
I think someone’s confusing HTML development with software engineering. Yes, if you call building basic web pages “software”, then $40k is about right. But the actual developers are doing just fine. As srb pointed out, the people working at Home Depot are just hangovers from the dot-com era and probably couldn’t code themselves out of a paper bag.
December 9th, 2007 at 12:15 pm
I am software engineer and I earn well above 100k, but I know, in my office, not many engineers earn that much. Only engineers with years of experience and specialized skill-sets earn over 100k. The remaining (and vast majority) engineers work in contract basis. Most of them are working in H1/L1 visa and there are a middleman companies (companies which are holding their work visa) eating all the money. Engineers get very little. Most of them don’t get more than 70k. That’s the story of whole SF bay area and rest of the hi-tech world.
So you know why Bill Gates and others CEO of hi-tech companies relentlessly vouch for increasing H1 cap to Congress.
December 9th, 2007 at 12:16 pm
HTML coding in my own experience is HARD and should be up near the top of the pay scale. C++ is easy and the stuff that I’ve heard only pays about the same as being able to drive a forklift will get you at most places.
December 9th, 2007 at 12:16 pm
In my experience, building Web pages, or trying to, is a very good way to spend hours upon hours upon hours, and in the end, you find that your first attempt, getting the main.html page to say “Hello, World” is your greatest triumph.
It’s the end of the computer programming universe that most requires heavy drinking. I honestly don’t know how anyone can do it.
December 9th, 2007 at 1:16 pm
I would echo earlier posts stating that 100k and above is fair for non-management, senior-level software engineers that can hold their own from design to deployment. I don’t see coders paid above 90k, and I would not label coders “engineers.” In my experience, to break 120k/130k you’ll need to move to management, unless you get highly specialized in very recent technology that happens to temporarily be in high demand.
Also while it is not easy to generate properly coded HTML, it’s quite a stretch to state that it takes “engineering” skills to write.
December 9th, 2007 at 4:58 pm
I have a menial entry-level corporate job to support my lifestyle as a musician. But I still love to live here, even though I’ll have to wait for my inheritance before I buy my first house! If you just forget about how much money you’re throwing away renting (which is still less than LA, is it not?) and enjoy what’s right in front of your face instead of single-mindedly trying to “make it,” the Bay Area is almost matchless. There’s so much great stuff here.
December 9th, 2007 at 5:00 pm
Education is not free in India. You can borrow money like many of us and pay it back after you get your $100k job.
While I am not a software engineer, I work with plenty and the salary.com numbers look right to me. In fact, I live in Atlanta, GA and I think the top end of those numbers apply to about 5-8 years of experience.
Competence, fortunately for those of us in growing companies and vested financial interest, is quite a high determining factor in salary. The next is work ethic and productivity.
December 9th, 2007 at 5:26 pm
Senior Software Engineer here, making $110K in a small software company. Graduated 5 years ago (bachelors), was making $55K 4 years ago (it was a tough market) – now the market is hot, we’re having trouble finding qualified candidates. Even the duds are asking for $100K+…
December 9th, 2007 at 8:16 pm
I’m a “content engineer” – I do UI Design and Development for a 5k+ employee networking company and have been doing this kind of work for about 10 years. I use CSS/HTML/JS/JSP/XML/XSL, along with writing/editing skills and training/teaching experience. I have a BA in a liberal arts discipline. I make almost 70k before bonuses.
My fiance, who is a network engineer/sysadmin/vmware expert in SF for a small startup, makes about 90k before bonuses. He has some college credits, but no degrees.
Granted, neither of these are “software engineering” positions, but they are comparable. Neither of us have found it terribly difficult to land new jobs in the last 2 years, though it is more competitive for someone in my role than in his. The ceiling for my job is lower than his, and I am close to mine without going managerial.
Still, we won’t be buying in the Bay Area!
December 10th, 2007 at 12:40 am
esr’s just bitter he never got past ‘dishwasher’ at his dot-bomb.
I make the websites go, and I make $90k/yr. My spouse is a tools developer and makes $93k/yr. We’re looking at moving out-of-state so we can afford a house.
December 10th, 2007 at 12:44 am
When I was looking for software engineer jobs in 2005, most of the companies said that they would pay 80K to 130K for experienced software engineers. A lot of companies also gave 10% to 30% annual bonus. With stock options and bonus, a senior software engineer should make at least 150K a year.
December 10th, 2007 at 7:03 am
The job market is extremely hot right now in the valley. I work at a small, established tech company with 500 or so employees.
We find it very, very difficult to find good software engineers due to a red hot job market and the lack of quality talent out there. The company would rather push back the schedule or outsource, rather than bring on incompetence. This seems to be common practice in the valley. If a person holding a CS degree is working at Home Depot, they do not have the skills to be an engineer. Period.
I am 2 years out of college. My starting salary was $70K, and now I am making a base salary of $95K. Stock options, ESPP and bonuses push my earned income well over $100K.
December 10th, 2007 at 7:21 am
Funny thread. It’s very easy to make 6 figures in the bay area if you have desirable skills. Speaking from experience. The problem is, these salaries don’t mean $h!t here and you end up living the same quality of life as you would in other parts of the country earning half as much.
December 10th, 2007 at 7:21 am
I’m in Mass and hit $100k just after my 30th birthday. Haven’t looked for a job in a while, so I don’t know what the market looks like.
December 10th, 2007 at 7:55 am
Senior engineers (> 8 years experience) routinely get
paid ~ 120K or more — but with the dollar depreciation, thats really only worth about 90K in 2000 terms.
As anyone in software can attest, a good programmer
is about 5-10 times more productive than the average
programmer. In fact, poor programmers
have a net negative output — and possibly should
be reconsidering their career choice.
On the other hand, software is about 80%
grunt and 20% highly skilled work — Hence, average/junior developers are needed for the
grunt work.
December 10th, 2007 at 7:58 am
A year out of college in 02 I took a programming job for less than 40K in SoCal (desperate times), but when I got the nerve to leave them I found that the market had changed considerably. Now doing 85K in flyover country.
December 10th, 2007 at 8:10 am
Pralay’s account squares with what I have seen – most programmers lucky to make $70k. That’s when they have work.
No, I did not work as “dishwasher” at a dot-bomb. I’m white, remember? Basically unhireable unless I had some extraordinary skill in programming or some specialty where they’d have to hire me to get the job done.
The only programmer I know personally is white, works on contracts, does embedded stuff, and was considering dumping that to go sell stuff on Ebay – I hope I have warned him away from scambay, but I wonder, if embedded programming is so great, why’s he considering leaving it?
December 10th, 2007 at 10:54 am
After 5+ years, a programmer is either making $100k+ or lucky to still have a job. I agree with rr, poor programmers have a negative output and will not be hired or fired very soon. It is very difficult to find talented programmers in the bay area, and companies will pay top dollar for talent.
December 10th, 2007 at 11:03 am
> if embedded programming is so great, why’s he considering leaving it?
Because, eventually he will be dumped by his employer when he turns 40. That’s the open secret of Sillion Valley. Unless an engineer moves up to management position before he gets older, his future is bleak. He becomes a liability – with high salary and old enough to work overtime. Employer will replace him with a young engineer with startup salary 70k.
Bottomline, there is not much career prospect in hi-tech engineering job. You have three options
1. Wait for your employer to dump you.
2. Quit and start your own start-up with your friends.
3. Quit and do totally different thing (e.g Ebay stuffs).
December 10th, 2007 at 11:11 am
> It is very difficult to find talented programmers in the bay area, and companies will pay top dollar for talent.
Not true. Talented programmers are not born. They grow as programmers and eventually becomes “talented”. And guess what, a talented programmer in certain field (e.g. Java) can turn out to be a crappy programmers in other fields (e.g. network programming).
The problem is most of the companies is that they expect someone to join their project and start doing magical stuffs from very next day. A talented programmers needs to groomed. Most of the companies nowadays refuse to do so. They want ready-made stuffs.
December 10th, 2007 at 11:53 am
“No, I did not work as “dishwasher” at a dot-bomb. I’m white, remember? Basically unhireable unless I had some extraordinary skill in programming or some specialty where they’d have to hire me to get the job done.”
Wow, check out the pity-party esr’s throwing. No wonder you couldn’t hack it in the Bay Area.
December 10th, 2007 at 2:27 pm
I’m a coder, and don’t know any senior code-monkeys that make less than $130k. Often quite a bit more.
I knew the dot-com thing was over when my pizza guy was learning Java.
I knew the housing thing was over when my cellphone sales guy was quitting to go into a mortgage brokerage.
I’m sure that there’s tons of folks who are software engineers who make closer to the median – I’ve met them, they aren’t either up to date on tech, or they’re working in a shrinking field (like embedded systems). Work on writing enterprise software packages for resale, or internet applications, or software delivered as services, and you’ll still make bank. You’ll also work 80 hour weeks, and live in a hovel.
If you’re smart, you’ll live in a cheap hovel, and bank the difference for a rainy day. Lots of rainy days coming.
December 10th, 2007 at 4:04 pm
> I’m a coder, and don’t know any senior code-monkeys that make less than $130k.
There are not many “senior code-monkeys” around anymore. They are very slim minority in bay area. That’s makes your whole point moot. Just look are the whole industry. Most of the works are done by junior engineers and many of them working on H1 or L1.
December 10th, 2007 at 5:28 pm
To those who are complaining they can’t find good programmers to hire: it’s the same reason you can’t find good teachers in the schools: the pay does not justify the effort needed to develop the skills needed. After dot-com collapsed, companies began outsourcing these jobs overseas, and for a number of years it was very difficult to get paid a fair salary in software programming. Naturally, job seekers stopped investing their effort in this area.
December 10th, 2007 at 5:31 pm
I work in the Boston area and make $110K with 5yrs+ experience. Qualified folks in this area should expect to make $100K+. Most H1s pay in the $70-80K range.
December 10th, 2007 at 8:41 pm
i work for a large peninsula based company. we pay recent cs/eng college grads from good schools w/good grades 65k to start + 10% bonus (up to 20% for outstanding performance) + 401k w/good match + defined pension plan + the other typical stuff. we have 5 grades of engineers – the top maxes out at about 170k + 20-30% bonus. in addition for quite a few years about 20% of our work is outsourced with a company that has folks onsite and offshore. those onsite earn 60-80k paid from their own company and obviously they don’t have the same benefits. the offshore guys make a lot less.
esr sounds like an egotistical, high-maintenance, maybe even bitter dude. would not want him on my team.
pralay’s comments relative to age are completely untrue at my company and others I have worked at and know. at least 1/3 of our engineers are 40+. their experience in our very complex applications is highly valued and we want to retain them. maybe it’s true at start-ups or specific types of tech companies but he/she should not make such sweeping judgements. my impression from his writing is that he is esl. maybe hasn’t been in this country too long. in any case I sense anger and that probably speaks volumes. and luckily not everyone is cut out for (nor wants) mgt.
someone else mentioned lower level languages. assembler knowledge is also a huge benefit on someone’s resume.
by the way burbed, we moved here in 2000 and rent. i own property elsewhere and we have just been piling up the $$. live in a beautiful gated community w/indoor and outdoor pool, walk to restaurants, parks, bart. pay $1650/mo 2b/2ba. i have >500k in cash, funds, bonds not counting ira/401k/pension. we are SO at peace. no maintenance, no taxes, no dues, no muss, no fuss. i am putting away over 60k/year. we travel like crazy, want for nothing, just paid cash for a brand new car. NO debt of any kind. if RE prices come down more we might consider it. but at this point if anything ever happened i could easily move anywhere. or just move into my own property elsewhere and relax! keep up the good work!
December 10th, 2007 at 8:58 pm
Yeah but at the end of the day you don’t own a home here in the Bay Area. You’re one of those disgusting transients that will likely kidnap children, steal cars, and… worse… continue to rent.
Personally, I think all renters should have to wear a giant R on their foreheads so that REAL BAY AREA CITIZENS – GOOD BAY AREA CITIZENS – people who own real estate here – can know to avoid you.
December 10th, 2007 at 9:44 pm
> my impression from his writing is that he is esl. maybe hasn’t been in this country too long.
You are right. But does it have anything to do with the points I am making?
> in any case I sense anger and that probably speaks volumes. and luckily not everyone is cut out for (nor wants) mgt.
Anger? Anger for what? I am mere describing the facts. If you have opposite viewpoint – lay it out, instead of trying to be a mind-reader. I would recommend you to read some tech magazines. Or atleast read job related articles in SJ Mercury News.
This article must be lying:
http://www.informationweek.com/807/age.htm
If skillsets and experiences are similar, employers tends to hire younger guys. What a surprise!
As I mentioned earlier, I earn well above 100k with 6+ year exp. But unlike you I am under no illusion that all the engineers in Sillicon Valley earn as much I do.
I do interview people for the opened positions in our company. I do get all kind of resumes in my hand. They provide a pretty good picture of the job market. More older engineers have hardtime to get fulltime jobs. Hence they settle on doing contract/consultancy jobs here and there.
Secondly, the description of your company provides a very good picture of Sillcon Valley. I understand you want to keep older engineers. But how many older engineers did you hire in recent years? Do you hire as older experienced engineers as aggressively as you do for fresh grads from schools?
And I am not even going into that 20% outsourced part and ask for head-counts.
Lastly, nowhere I made a “sweeping judgements”. I just described the general job market trend. If your company is different and exception – more power to you.
December 10th, 2007 at 9:45 pm
Whoa… alrighty everyone – take a 30 minute break.
December 10th, 2007 at 10:52 pm
Well, I’m a release engineer with 2.5 years experience. Started with 60k when I graduated from college. Now I am getting 90k a year. The market is definitely a lot better recently, but according to my school’s salary survey it just caught up to 2000.
December 11th, 2007 at 2:37 am
I make about $110k a year and cash out around $20-30k in stock annually. I have around 8 years of experience.
I made more than $40k when I was living in Phoenix (Arizona) and Toledo (Ohio), and that was over 5 years ago. Anyone who can’t make at least $75k here in Silicon Valley is probably not a very good engineer.
If you are a good engineer and aren’t making at least $90k, send me your resume (I could use the $4k referral bonus).
December 11th, 2007 at 2:56 am
“You almost have to make the $100k a year first then you can afford to go to college :-/”
Federal Student Loans. I pay less than $200 a month for what was 5 years of school. I didn’t even graduate and I still hold a senior position; I know plenty of people who didn’t even go to college who are doing well. If you honestly think software engineering is some easy job that anyone can do, it’s no wonder that you think that people only make $40k a year in the industry.
“Basically unhireable unless I had some extraordinary skill in programming or some specialty where they’d have to hire me to get the job done.”
My team is made up of the following people:
- 4 Caucasian American Citizens
- 2 Asian American Citizens (1 born, 1 naturalized)
- 1 guy from Switzerland (H1B)
- 1 guy from the UK (green card holder)
- 1 Chinese guy
- 0 Indians
Stop working for shitty companies that only hire H1Bs. Good companies don’t do this, and that’s why they’re successful.
“Bottomline, there is not much career prospect in hi-tech engineering job. You have three options”
Bullshit. Yes, the industry skews young (because, lets be honest here, the entire commercial Internet “industry” is only really 10 years old or so), but there are plenty of senior, experienced people in their 40s or 50s. A healthy percentage of people in that age range get to retire early, so 60 year old engineers aren’t common, but they do exist.
Most of the negative comments here sound like they’re coming from people who really just aren’t very good and are upset that they can’t get $100k+ like the people who are. Software engineering is not like working in a factory; it’s a creative discipline like any other, and only those who are good at it will do well.
December 11th, 2007 at 10:05 am
Kevin sounds like someone who’s, you know, set foot in the bay area recently.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:06 pm
> Software engineering is not like working in a factory;
Ha ha! Kevin. Yes, I am a software engineer and I know that very well. Yes, it’s not a factory job, but it is not a rocket science either. Andreessen wrote Mosaic when he was a graduate student. Torvolds initiated Linux project when he was a student too. I guess you are doing more innovative stuffs than these guys. After all you are not working in factory and you have 8+ years of experience. The fact is that major chunk (note, I am not saying ALL) of software jobs do not require any creativity or genius. Proper education, experience, know-how about certain kind of products/technologies, ability to follow certain methodologies and most importantly ability to work in team – all these do the tricks. If that is the case, how is it different from a guy working in a Detroit car factory? He also requires similar kind of stuffs – not any less. Only difference is that he does not work in an air-conditioned room and his salary is lot less than you.
Don’t be such a snob.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:32 pm
[...] that the starting salary of a software engineer in Silicon Valley is about $90k, that everyone else makes about $130k and up, and frankly this is a pretty crime free and quiet [...]
December 12th, 2007 at 11:30 pm
“Yes, it’s not a factory job, but it is not a rocket science either.”
“Rocket Science” isn’t rocket science, either. There’s a whole world of difference between a factory worker and a skilled software engineer. You can’t just take any joe off of the street and sit them down and show them how to write quality software, but you can do that for a factory worker.
Now, software engineering certainly isn’t the most highly skilled profession in the world, but it’s a hell of a lot higher up the chart than the majority of occupations. It’s about on par with design, marketing, or accounting (and, coincidentally, pays about the same).
Working on a team, knowing about some technologies, and following methodologies do not make you a good engineer — they’re the bare minimum things that you need to function in the work place. Good engineers are ultimately good problem solvers. If you aren’t actually solving problems, you’re not an engineer, you’re just some guy typing out someone else’s solutions to problems.
December 13th, 2007 at 10:06 pm
I’m a sw-eng and make 150k, currently about 120k extra per year in funny money from stock options as well. I’ve been in the business about 10 years and started very young.
Oddly I just found out that hardware engineers with experience in thermal design can actually pocket quite a lot more than I do (let’s say around 170k)
I actually dislike company policies that lead to hiring tons of H1Bs simply because it shows that management believes that throwing bodies at a project is a cost effective way of operating in the software business. I believe that getting a few good guys together to find creative solutions works much better and is hugely more productive in the long run.
As has been noted (correctly), a good programmer is several times better than an average one. Thus, the body count assigned to a SW project is much less important than whether the right people are applying their creativity productively.
A lot of companies *want* to turn software into uncreative factory work.
Those companies just don’t get it and will run out of cash sooner or later, even if they’re “saving” by hiring 3 “cheap” H1Bs instead of 1 great engineer.
December 14th, 2007 at 2:23 pm
Kevin,
There is a good amount of truth to what Pralay is saying. Your perception does not change the facts. Creativity is usually involved in the business ideas that exploit the software a vehicle to promote them. In developing software the are quite a lot of ideas (mostly known as design patterns) already available to use. You can reinvent the wheel or truely introduce new design patterns, but that happens in less than 1% of what are currently known as software compnies. Rest of the software shops are those that simply implement the known design principles or guidelines to achieve the end goal which is to serve the final business goal. This fact does not mean that these companies will disappear or are not doing good. That’s just your perception. For these jobs “Working on a team, knowing about some technologies, and following methodologies” suffices. To say otherwise is simply untrue.
But I still belive that it takes quite more intellectual capability to even apply those design principles than a factory worker. To be truely objective, factory worker also possesses certain skills which requires some experience to acquire. However traditionally world rewards intellectual skills more than physical skills.
My 2 cents from somebody who make 150k+ with 10+ years of experience.
December 14th, 2007 at 2:31 pm
Thing to remember is that core technology companies are far less in number compared to the service industry companies that use software to promote their main business line.
December 21st, 2007 at 10:18 pm
$125k. Been doing this for a while, and recently promoted to management. Oh, and I rent…
December 21st, 2007 at 10:34 pm
I have nothing against outsourcing in general, but I have seen (and rewritten) my share of India and Eastern Europe code, and it’s complete garbage, by and large. No better than code samples by homegrown morons I see all the time that I wouldn’t hire with a gun to my head.
This stuff isn’t very hard, but the ratio of good/great code to utter cr@p is infinitesimal.
December 28th, 2007 at 3:23 pm
$150k as Java programmer at major tech company in the mtn view area. 9 years experience.
December 28th, 2007 at 3:25 pm
Also, I rent.
March 17th, 2010 at 4:05 pm
I have a unbranded BS in CS but 10-11 yr of databases experience . 32 yrs old and i just landed a 200k+ in base salary job(FTE) in silicon valley . Sky is the limit in tech and there is no other industry which there are so many opportunities . What other field will let me cross 200k by age 32 with a unbranded BS degree. I know sevral peers (consulting) making between 200-300k in consulting work . Most of them are immigrants with foreign undergrad degrees . Top 10% of techies (Sr soft engineers, architects , managers , directors , dbas etc) make as much money as doctors do .
March 17th, 2010 at 6:33 pm
I could increase your salary to $250K+ if you kept no space before all the fullstops and commas.
March 17th, 2010 at 7:58 pm
I have a unbranded BS in CS but 10-11 yr of databases experience . 32 yrs old and i just landed a 200k+ in base salary job(FTE) in silicon valley.
Well, since everyone is bragging (which is all fine and dandy, but you’re making me feel poor)…
I have a monster c0ck.
November 12th, 2010 at 1:38 pm
very interesting to see what you guys earned, and when i was first getting into college 4 years ago there wasnt this kind of money in this field (from what i was told by school counselors and know it all friends) so i went into Psychology, and was planning med school instead. even though its not what i wanted to do. well now that ive finished all of my european exploits and fun, its time to get back to school and i only have about 20 units left until i’m finihsed with my Bach in psych, but i just cant make myself go back to that, and i think that starting over at the local community college to smash out those begginger CS classes will best make me happy in the long run. i just have a few questions.
1. is a degree in CS better than Computer Engineering?
2. what kinds of math level is involved in the schooling, and what kind of math do you guys deal with daily at your various jobs.
3. i’ve always enjoyed computer since we had my first apple, andit only grew when we got our first Gateway in 2000, so playing on the computer at home, beyond browsing the net, and playing MMORPG’s has been a secret love of mine. are there any types of things i can do at home outside of the class that can give me some kind of start into programing, even at its basic levels?
4. im in europe right now, but i’ll be back home in California before xmas, and so are there any CSU’s (non-UC) schools that have good CS programs?
5. it seems like everyone lives in Silicon Valley, are there not a vast amount of jobs in other cities? for instance, could i not get a great programming job in Hawaii?
November 12th, 2010 at 1:41 pm
wow my grammar is just atrocious
March 14th, 2011 at 2:41 pm
Most people on this forum are completely wrong. When my father only had 5 years of experience back in 96′ he was already making almost 100k if not slightly below it. After about 20+ years he now makes upwards of 180k per year, that isnt including bonuses, stock options and various other perks. And i know TONS over TONS of people in the bay area making this type of money. People (mostly white people, second and third generation asians) say that software engineering and become a doctor is the “typical” asian shit and a stereotype, and many of them including indians and chinese students of this generation are going astray from what most of their parents did and going through liberal arts and english and history and other majors (law, business etc). While this isnt a problem, you should do what you like, they dont understand a truth that is staring them in the face. Job prospects for engineers go up repeatedly, dont gimme that jobs are moving away bullshit. I live in the valley and anyone who knows a useful language OTHER than java, such as C++, C# and so on tends to have a good high paying job. Same goes for many people who ONLY know java as well. This whole “my jobs are going away” shit comes from the current generation and white people too lazy to learn enough in college but expect high paying jobs even if they dont know anything. And for those asians going astray just remember, more than likely, those cs kids in your class are gonna be kicking ur a** in the near future. They’ll will most likely be driving around in a decent bmw or mercedes just a few years after joining work, while youll slog into your forties or fifties as a “lawyer” before you can actually pay for your home. Just a little thought.
March 14th, 2011 at 4:31 pm
Wow, gg!
Just to let you know I’m making more in my second year as a lawyer than your poor daddy is after 20 years.
Atrocious writing, by the way. You might want to take a remedial writing course at your community college.
March 14th, 2011 at 5:20 pm
Sure, ROI, but my daddy makes more money than your daddy. Nyah!
March 14th, 2011 at 6:02 pm
#62, are you saying that in 15 years your father wasn’t able to double his salary? He should have bought a house in the RBA instead. Those always double every ten years.
March 14th, 2011 at 6:03 pm
Nomadic –
Let’s just say I’m years from even coming close to what the big dog makes.
March 14th, 2011 at 6:08 pm
Chelsea, is that you?
December 7th, 2011 at 6:07 am
62K with 2 years of experience now in Michigan